Road maps and inventories: understanding and coping with Parental Alienation

To prove to you that I am hurtling towards the completion of the book (talks with publisher this morning went well), I am offering for all of you who read my blog a follow up to the last post which has provoked some talking and thinking and perhaps some agonising too.  Given that, as an educator and therapist, my goal is always to provoke thinking in order to create change, it would be unfair of me not to give you the tools you need to start the process of making your own road map for coping if your child has rejected you or is in the process of doing so.

Tool number one is the Self Inventory.  It is the way in which you understand the behaviours that you may have shown to your child or their other parent, which have contributed to the fixed dynamic in which the child refuses to see you any longer.  The Self Inventory is a fairly brutal approach to setting out on your journey of self discovery, because it requires you to face, in it’s cold and sometimes stark reality, the past, your role in the past and the way in which you relate to the past, right here and now, in the present.

The past is another country or so they say.  Not for alienated parents it isn’t.  For alienated parents, the past is too often alive and well and making powerful incursions into the present day, lapping its influence into each moment you continue to exist, extending its tentacles around you invisibly until you become almost unaware that there is such a thing as today.  When I work with alienated parents, it is striking how many are frozen in time, locked back into the past, existing in today only for the moment when the ice thaws and their child emerges again.  When I work with alienated children, it is remarkable how similar their presentations often are to the parent they are now estranged from. Locked and frozen, almost as if someone pressed the pause button.  A major task for alienated parents is finding out how to move on.

Because alienation is linked so closely to the grief cycle, only without the positive movement beyond the depths of despair and depression, becoming locked and frozen in the past is an agonising experience.  This is what produces the common symptoms suffered by alienated parents of having to repeat the story over and over again.  Repetititve telling of ‘the story’ is how we humans process shock and grief.  As we tell and retell what has happened to us we are seeking to assure ourselves and reassure ourselves, comfort ourselves and protect ourselves too.  Being forcibly removed from your child, be you mother or father and be it slowly and helplessly or suddenly and without warning, produces the same kind of shock and grief reaction as bereavement.  The behaviours that accompany that can make you feel (and appear) as if you have gone quite mad.  Repetitive story telling is only one sign, one experience to be had amongst the grief reactions; panic, alarm, anxiety, sleeplessness, restlessness, searching, forgetfulness, psychosis, all are to be found within the spectrum of grief and all are present for parents whose children become rejecting of them.

Did you experience any of those?

If you did, from your more distanced perspective now, can you look back and think about how that made you react, act, appear to other people?

The starting point for coping with parental alienation is to get back into the driving seat of your parenthood.  Getting back into the driving seat of your parenthood means looking back into the world you still live in and putting distance and perspective into the landscape.  Standing back and reviewing and examining. Owning your stuff (or shit) as some people like to put it.

And whether that stuff (or shit) as some people put it was fairly dumped on you or not (and let’s face it no-one who is dealing with bereavement can be considered to have had that fairly dumped on them) the issue you are facing is that how you coped back then is a narrative that your child carries with them.  You see, children who are in an alienated position cannot see any other perspective than their own which is largely often fused with the parent they are aligned with.  And so, if your child went into a transitional reaction and started to withdraw from you and was supported in that by the parent they were aligned with, how you reacted to that became their complete experience of the world.

And I am guessing that not many of you simply sat back and said breezily ‘fine, off you go, I never loved you anyway…‘ when the reaction set in.

You didn’t did you?  What you did was –

a) took the other parent to task 

b) took the other parent to court

c) took yourself to the nearest parental rights group

d) took yourself to the madhouse and back in your search for justice

and in addition what happened around your family at the point was

a) Your child started saying things that were not true

b) the other parent upheld those things as the gospel truth

c) some family court professionals came by and poured petrol on the already burning building

d) You ended up feeling mad/bad/dangerous to know

and some of you acted as if you were mad or bad or dangerous to know and in your shock, pain and grief, confirmed for all around you why your child didn’t want to see you again.

And from that moment, the ice froze around you and nobody moved, least of all you.

Is that how it looks in the past, from your more distanced place now which gives you perspective?  Is it similar, if it is, how similar? is it different, if it is, how different?  Write it down, review it, share it on here, talk about it with people who understand.

One of the most cruel things that we do to alienated parents in the UK (and I am guessing many other places in the world too by the look of numbers of people from far and wide who visit this blog), is we silence them and we pathologise them and we label them.  When all the while what has happened to them is a normal reaction to having your children forcibly removed from you in what is akin to bereavement but without a body to bury.  In short, we collectively ignore the natural and normal reactions of loving, caring parents, who would die for their children and who continue, without their children in their lives to ache, from the deepest places of their hearts and souls for the loss they have suffered. Or we call them mad, bad or dangerous to know.

But not here.  Not in this space. Not whilst I have a breath left in my body.

Self Inventories are easy to begin but quite difficult to complete in my experience.  In this self inventory I want you to take a piece of paper and a pen and sit down quietly for at least 30 minutes when you cannot be disturbed and I want you to think about the following questions.  Be honest with yourself, no-one is going to see this but you.  I want you to go through the following questions and I want you to write the first part of what will become a major piece of your road map.  Your road map is in three parts.  Understanding, coping and helping.  You are working on part one which is understanding.  Here you are understanding yourself in the world of relationships you were once in.  The relationships that eventually put you in the place of rejected or alienated parent.  Deep breath. Don’t be afraid. We are all here cheering you on (and there are a lot of us now in this boat we are starting to row together).

The Questions

When the alienation reaction started to set in, how did you react?  

                                                                                                                                                                                 

You gave in to the angry feelings that your child caused with their poor behaviour  Yes  No
You shouted at your child
You attempted to shame your child into behaving better
You acted as if you are shocked with your child
You gave in to depression and feel defeated
You focused on the wrong thing (trying to prove to your child that they are wrong)
You blamed the other parent
You tackled the problem with boundary setting and time outs
You ignored the problem and hoped it would go away
Anything else that you can think of?

 

Put the paper in front of you now and consider the reality of what happened back then. Think about your own feelings and now think about the other parent’s feelings. Finally think about how your child felt then. Write down, in each of the columns on your paper, how you think your child felt back then.

And then stop.

Working on Self Inventory is draining and it can be upsetting. It can feel, after all of your helplessness and all of the blame you have faced, as if it is just another round of having a go at you. You are vulnerable, I don’t want you to overload yourself with the kind of work which dredges up difficult feelings. I don’t want you to ber overwhelmed with guilt, or shame on top of the grief that you already experience.

But I do want you to feel.

And I do want you to begin the process of changing the way that you react to the past and the way that the past influences and affects you. Because your reaction – not to feel, to protect yourself by becoming numb, to distract yourself by projecting blame and to attempt not to think about what has happened, is exactly the same reaction as your child is experiencing. It is a mirror image.

And to change this, something, anything, has to change. So it might as well be you.

Because you have the power over you and though the other parent currently has the power over your child (aided and abetted by most family services), it won’t always be that way.

Therapeutic Coaching sessions for alienated parents are available daily from the Family Separation Clinic, please email appts@familyseparationclinic.co.uk for an appointment. Sessions cost £70 per hour and can be booked individually or in blocks of six at a cost of £300 (reducing the cost to £50 per session).

Therapeutic Coaching sessions with Karen Woodall can be booked at £90 per hour for individual sessions or can be tailored in packages which attract reduced costs, please ask for details.

Understanding Parental Alienation – Learning to Cope, Helping to Heal will be available shortly at a cost of £12.99. Pre-order here

 

17 Comments

  1. As an alienated paternal grandmother I have read your blogs and posts.I have always respected your opinion.We all need to look inward at what causes alienation.What about when you have no control.What about when the resident parent refuses all forms of mediation and communication.The only way is via maternal grandparents and family courts.Both proved useless in our our case. Its almost as if she has taken my grandchildren hostage. How do children cope with hostage takers they please they are loyal they protect themselves.
    It would be great to access your services but how do we move things to that point.?

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    1. I think the major thing to keep in mind when I write these pieces on my blog is thatthey come from the handbook for parents and families and so are snapshots of different parts of the book. The book overall deals with all of the different aspects of understanding and coping with alienation, including when you do not see a child at all and when you are a grandparent.

      I know that for some of you, reading these pieces outside of that context can be irritating because you are living something that doesn’t feel the same as what i am writing about. I can tell that these pieces bring to the surface some sense of indignation for some and general feelings of being annoyed for others.

      So your grandchildren have been taken from you, it feels as if they have been kidnapped, they HAVE been kidnapped in some respects, by one of their parents who has state sanctified control and is free to do that. Some people in those circumstances, focus only on the injustice and helplessness, others get involved in pardntal rights groups and try to channel their sorrow and frustration and longing throug empowering others, others set up support groups for people suffering the same fate, others look for the opportunities that arise that they can make the most of in terms of inveigling their way back into the child’s life, others walk away and give up, others spend a lifetime in pain and sorrow and suffering.

      Which road do you travel Anne and is there another that you would prefer to be on? Given that you cannot change the law, the circumstances in which your grandchildren have been captured or the personality of the mother of your grandchildren, which one of those roads (or another of your own making), feels right for you. Which one will bring you if not freedom, at least some relief from the feeling of being locked out of a world that you ‘should’ be involved in.

      Focusing on ‘should’ leads to nowhere other than endless frustration and growing resentment. Growing resentment leads to illness and despair. My goal for all alienated parents is that they focus on the coulds and the possibilities in their life instead of the shoulds and the closed doors. Life, when it flows brings all sorts of possibilities, life when it stops and is focused only on what is not happening, becomes endlessly and frustratingly exhausting and sad.

      It is endlessly sad when children have been kidnapped legally and that is supported by the state and all around the parent who has done that. The sadness never goes way. However, just as the death of a child is endlessly sad and never goes away, life does go on and when it does, other things come in to make a purpose, a meaning and a sweetness that you may believe will never return. It will, it does, it can.

      I know how difficult it is to live with living loss, I have lived it too, I don’t just write from professional experience I write from lived experience as well. My road map brought me to this place, your road map will take you somewhere else. None of the places it takes us to have to involve us going under in despair. We carry sadness with us but we can choose to be different every single day of our lives.

      And those maternal grandparents – I would be taking them out for a meal on a regular basis and sweet talking them and building opportunities to open doors through them. Who cares if it is just or unjust that they have the key to the door and you don’t, what is it that you would really like, justice or the door to your grandkids, you might just have to face the fact that because of who their mother is, you are not going to be able to have both.

      It is a tough world but there is always so much more when you withdraw the focus and look at what is within your sphere of influence.

      Sending my support.

      K

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      1. i will write mre about how children use coping mechanisms to adjust to loyalty conflicts and the demands their ‘kindnapper’. There is also a good book called prisoners of a kidnapped mind (I think) I will find a link to it for you.

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      2. Thank you Karen for your response and support. We all have to put coping mechanisms in place to deal with the grief of a living bereavement.I feel grandparents are often hit hard as they see their child and grandchildren being emotionally abused in such a cruel way. We become helpless in a situation that is way out of our control.

        Maternal grandparents could be the key, but often are fearful they will be put in the same situation, if seen fraternising with the enemy
        .I cope by being active, doing all I can to raise awareness about the difficulties non resident parents and the extended family suffer if the resident is implacably hostile.

        .As a recovered feminist and former equalities officer for a trade union
        I look at the gender equality pages on web sites.
        Gender equality now means women’s issues only
        .In Wales we are legislating to” End Violence Against Women”, we have all women short lists.We have areas in Cardiff where 59% of all families are led by a single mother.Yet we are doing nothing positive to engage with Dads
        I have been told there is no evidence of discrimination in family courts.I think if we looked at stats on non resident parents achieving equal parenting or adequate contact then I think the stats would show direct discrimination.

        I am a service user and volunteer for FNFBPM and I don’t know how I would have managed without the support I get from them and family and friends.I think grandparents could be the key to help to change policy. The grey vote is very important.

        .I hope Karen we are making some inroads into bringing respect back to fatherhood.

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      3. I hope we are too Anne and as a grandmother of a a little boy And step mother of a son I desperately want their lives not to be blighted by this tragedy.

        Those maternal grandparents might be worth the longer term befriending strategy in my view…and I know that fear of feeling it will be me next if I say something..it is stifling and terrifying…in my experience kids in those circumstances become very very clingy and enmeshed with their mother, they refuse to leave her side…is that the case?

        if so I can advise a little.

        K

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      4. Alienation begins long before a parent leaves. This is my experience and I believe this is what you are exploring.My grandchildren are completely alienated. Mum is perfect beautiful clever and any other complimentary adjective they could use. Then Dad and all Dads family including young cousins cannot be in their world.The hate word is used freely.Thankfully we all realise that the children are all suffering too.; I would welcome any suggestions on how we deal with no communication channels whatsoever.

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  2. I think I am most definitely one of those parents who is struggling with as you were saying, reading things out of the context of my own situation.

    I have stared at those questions for ages…..and I think the honest answer to them all except one for me is NO.

    The only one that would be YES is ‘You blamed the other parent’.

    However, that was only when discussing the situation with friends, not with or in front of my child, so in that context maybe the answer to that question is also NO

    I can see that each question refers to behaviours in the parent that if present they could change to improve things for their children, but if those behaviours were not present in the parent in the first place, does this tell us anything about the behaviour of the child?

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    1. Hi J,

      One of the reasons I am writing the book is to put as much power into the hands of parents as possible, we know not everyone can afford to pay for services but sadly, unless someone with a lot of money (not government) is prepared to sink investment into delivery, this is the way we get those services out there. Writing the book is a way of getting the whole package to you in one go, so you don’t have to spend your time and money wading through the clinical handbooks, so that you can determine your own future and choose what to do and what not to do. The reason the book is taking a long time is because I have to write it in and around the other work we do to earn a living, sadly, though millions are thrown at the national charities who don’t even believe that alienation exists, not a penny comes this way – not that we would take it now, working outside of government, directly with and for parents is THE only way to do this in my view.

      If you are looking at the questions and saying no to most of them and you are being absolutely honest in that, then you may be in the category of pure alienation, I cannot tell you that definitively without taking you through all of the other stages of assessment but you may be. If that is the case then you need a different strategy.

      However, none of this is of any use if all that you do is maintain a fixed and blaming stance and focus on what has been done to you instead of what else is happening around you.

      If all you ever do is stand with your finger pointed at the other person or the state or the cafcass officer or anyone else but you, then all you will ever get is stasis. I am not saying you do this, I don’t think you do, but some do and those are the ones whose lies are ruined over time.

      I have worked with a lot of families over the years and only met a handful where the alienating parent made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, those are the ones which are very very easy to treat. The others are more complex but each and every one starts by getting the alienated parent into a different mindset, back into the flow of living and feeling they are worth it.

      I will get the book out as soon as I can but happy to keep on discussing in the meantime. K

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      1. Thanks for that Karen. I look forward to the publication of your book, but appreciate the difficulties in getting it finished within a set time frame, especially considering the time and effort you devote to trying to provide help and guidance here on your blog.

        I will go back through those questions over the coming days and weeks myself and also ask for opinions on my answers from friends that know me and the situation well and have watched as events unfolded.

        However, I am fairly confident that my answers are definitely all NO in relation to my youngest child, and the way I have behaved in respect of him over the past couple of years, because some years previously I went through exactly the same thing with his sister (same mother).

        I always did what I thought was right for my daughter at that time, but back then I would certainly have had to answer some of the questions YES, so on hindsight I could definitely have done things differently in respect of her.

        I think I learned from my mistakes, if that is indeed what they were because based on more recent experience with my son, I am not sure things would have turned out differently with my daughter no matter what I had done.

        But yes, based on those experiences and mistakes from 4-5 years ago, I definitely changed my behaviour and attitude towards the situation when it started to become clear that my son was under similar pressure as his sister had been previously.

        As well as grappling with the question – is it possible for me to change any more and still remain the person I am? – the other question that haunts me is whether the situation for my son is indeed one of pure alienation or hybrid? I just wish I knew so that I could focus on the most appropriate course of action.

        It is a very complex situation which I won’t go into now, but looking at it as objectively as it is possible to do when so emotionally involved I am inclined to think that it is one of pure alienation, and if that is the case then I guess realistically no matter how much I change, the situation for my children will not until there is some form or intervention.

        Although it is very difficult not to point the finger, and try to attach blame to the other parent, certainly in the Court arena, I am mindful of your words and currently in a position where I am avoiding doing so like the plague, and hopefully more focused on my son as a result.

        Instead of pointing fingers, I am trying to convince the Cafcass Guardian to do some work with both parents along with my son, on the basis that any help or guidance he can any of us to overcome the barriers that exist has to benefit my son, and might resolve the situation

        From what you have said in previous blogs, if it is a case of pure alienation, then that approach will not work, but since I am not qualified to make that judgement I cannot be sure it is not hybrid alienation, in which case it has to be worth remaining open to any suggestions, and trying to work with the Guardian and the mother of my children to try and resolve the issue, even if ultimately these attempts fail and yet another approach has to be found.

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  3. I became that mad, bad and dangerous to know person. But not at the point when my ex completely alienated me from my child after I left him. What tipped me into that MBDTK person was the fact that despite the conviction of domestic violence by my ex; the irrational sudden refusal of my child wanting to see me at all; evidence of emotional abuse of my child by her Father and recognition by the Judge of ‘over zealous’ Fathering – Social Services were happy to simply accept my child’s wishes and feelings and let my child walk away from me. Up until then I naively had faith that justice would prevail. It was that feeling of impotence and injustice that was my tipping point. I’m sure I’m not alone here.

    Until Social Services and Cafcass recognise PA and step in with robust fast-track intervention there will continue to be too many crazies like me out there who painfully watch their children suffering.

    My wish is that campaigning such as Karen’s will reach high places and bring about policy change before too long.

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    1. We have to keep trying S, we have to keep going…I face social services disbelief and incompetence frequently, but some do get it in it’s entirety, Look out for an article I have written about PA Which will be in this month’s Journal for social workers and cafcass workers, I will post a link, we are doing everything we can to raise awareness. K

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  4. Hi Karen

    Almost a year has passed since re-unification with my daughter and there are lots of lovely new memories that we have made together in just a short time. But, the feelings and perceptions are still evolving. The pace of undoing alienation is important and so, I feel, is the rate of recovery afterwards. The initial rate of progress is miraculously fast. It slows down considerably.

    The grief parallels are clear but in bereavement there is finality and we are usually able to bring about or begin a process of closure. In alienation it is difficult. Even after reunification (resurrection) we live in abject fear that alienation (bereavement) will strike again.

    Whereas we normally try to shield our children from the affects of loss and grief, in alienation they can be made to experience the full impact in isolation whilst being made to feel guilty and disloyal if they confide these feelings in anyone or share them. It must be hell.

    Looking forward becomes difficult when we live in the shadow of alienation because we fear a return to some dark and horrible places, both for ourselves and for our children. Our basic instincts for survival encourage us to be wary toward things that hurt us.

    In your recent blog “Righting the wrongs etc.” the parent sounds surprised, almost apologetic, at his feelings following reunification. The process is emotionally confusing. Feelings often run counter to ones expectations and this propagates other sets of questions and sometimes guilt that you are plainly not as overjoyed as you imagined you would be.

    The narratives behind each story are complex and with time, learning and insight, the perspectives change as you unravel and rationalise confused emotions. Through self-evaluation and re-evaluation we can avoid repeating contributory behaviours of our own and arrive at a point where we feel comfortable shifting emphasis onto the opportunities ahead instead of the wrongs of the past.

    The statement,” And from that moment, the ice froze around you and nobody moved, least of all you.” Describes perfectly the stranded state some of us find ourselves in at some stage in the process. Allied with the consequent numbness, any movement or progress seems hopeless. It’s essential to prioritise the things we can change instead of the things that lie completely outside our ability to influence. If there’s only one change that is worthwhile making then this is it.

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  5. What do you do?

    Right now you are out on a limb. You feel powerless. You have no control over the whereabouts of your children nor the way in which they live.

    In child speak you are at the back of the classroom with your hand raised high asking for your opinion to be heard. But nobody hears you, not the teacher, nor their colleagues, your former partner or even the world at large. Maybe your supportive mother/granny is also raising her hand but nobody listens to her either.

    Why have you fallen from grace so suddenly?

    It wasn’t as if you have done anything wrong? Why are you and your side of the family in so much pain because of what your former partner has done?
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
    The only relevance to this situation is the fact that your emotions have been affected by what your former partner and all those pesky authority figures have said.

    From this point on are you going to value your own opinion ahead of all those who are agin you OR are you going live the rest of your life with the ugly notion that you had no control over your own destiny. I suggest the former.

    In child speak this will mean taking your place on the rostrum, living your life with child in mind and doing what YOU believe.

    This may sound difficult. (There are so many important people who disagree with me, not least my own child). How do I empower myself?

    You behave as one who has always been and will always be a parent to their child. Difficult? As difficult as you want it to be. The choice is all yours to make.
    Be there, do it, feel the life beating pulse of the family man/woman.

    But what about all those powerful individuals who live in high places who want to stop me?

    Ignore them. You said it, their only purpose is to be high and powerful and look down on you from lofty places. If that’s what they want to do; then let them, it is no business of yours.

    You have found the flight of the dove within you and you soar gloriously overhead.

    Your power is your inquisitiveness; your dance is your happiness, your inventiveness, your fearlessness, your empathy, your freedom from reliance on others and their opinions of you.
    Whilst others may criticise you they no longer immobilise you because you know that their opinion means nothing if you don’t want it to. All they have demonstrated to you is their desire to criticise you.

    So here you are, fully conversant with your child’s likes and dislikes, updated with their circle of friends, supplying useful information and moral support. Having your friends ask you about holidays with your children.

    So where did all those dastardly people in high places go, and what became of your Ex? “Oh them; they didn’t go anywhere, I just didn’t think they were significant any more”.

    In fact the very same teacher who tried to ignore me just a few months ago asked me what I thought about J’s recent piece of work and could I remember to attend open day, it’s important to my child. Well, well, well stranger things have happened.

    Kind regards

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  6. Great post Karen. Keep up the good work. You are making a difference to countless children and parents suffering from this destructive family dynamic. Good luck with the book and let me know when it comes out.

    Sincerely,

    mike jeffries

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  7. As ever, another deeply informative blog that confirms unequivocally my own personal experience of parental alienation and the living bereavement brought about by not seeing my children. Yes, I admit I made mistakes before separation and after separation. I understand that. I am now in a better place and able to deal with the situation better than I did more than three years ago when our family life broke down. I am ready to move things forward, as you know Karen, and with your help I do believe that there is a brighter future for my children, me and indeed, my ex-wife. Let’s hope she engages in the process.

    The only thing I didn’t do was feel “mad, bad and dangerous to know” although that was what I was being accused of by my ex-wife. I thought about this during the court process and even came close to convincing myself that my ex-wife was right, but my friends and those close to me told me this was not the case and that my ex-wife was clearly trying to obliterate me from the lives of my children, not only from her life. I know that I was not the bad person she was making me out to be, and I thought this would become clear during the court process but, as many of us know, this is typically not the case and as a man, in the family courts, you are regarded as being a potential risk to your children if your children’s other parent is minded to make allegations of harm and domestic violence, even though these allegations are untrue.

    I have completed the self-inventory, but will do it again and think carefully about each of my responses. The first time I did it I had mostly “no” as the answer, but I think I need to do it again and think hard, examine myself carefully and with a close up lens.

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  8. Which points incontrovertibly to one thing; that solutions lie not in our ability to outwit or outmanoeuvre our perceived opposition.

    It is our ability to share our personal vision with those who would most benefit.

    We cannot stop Ms. Leach or anyone else from saying what she says, publishing her book, using media snaps as a means of promoting her ideas. To oppose it would to be invite argument. To moan about it would create cause for complaint. This is why Monty Python has an “argument room” and a “complaints room”.

    I believe the problems facing partners who split and their children is fundamentally an emotional one.

    I need to repair myself and I need to help my children and former partner in their reparations too.

    We have visions and creations in our mind that do the job that needs to be done that would make the family, post-separation a better and safer place.

    If Dandlebear Bridge is broadcast as a useful tool for separated families in protecting and helping children then its’ strength and longevity will determine the necessity for children to keep both parents post-separation.

    So nobody needs to engage with Ms. Leach on her rather cruel 5yr rule. In fact, as Padresteve has already pointed out if you want to argue/engage with Ms.Leach the only outcome that can possibly result is more argument. The harder we fight the stronger the defence.

    The best riposte is the promotion of “Dandlebear Bridge” and “Sowing Seeds”. If these “tools” are widely accepted there will be no need to counter Ms. Leach’s 5yr rule. Her idea has no meaning in a post-separation environment where couples living apart are working on the stability of their Dandlebear Bridge, making the transition for children a happy one.

    I sometimes think that these circular arguments we have are the same self-serving one’s that we had when we couldn’t reach agreement with our former partner’s.

    Think positive.

    Kind regards

    Like

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